Deliverance Ministries Part 1
Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Heavenly Father, we thank you and praise you for all that you are and for how much you love us, even when we aren't loveable.
WvstarwolfOAMCounselor says, yes Father
Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Tonight as we use the truth of your word to test the teachings we are going to be studying, I pray that you would open our eyes up to what you want us to know.
Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Show us the truth and help us to see the error.
Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, We ask this in the precious name of Jesus and for His glory alone, amen.
WvstarwolfOAMCounselor says, yes Jesus
parepidemos_oam_pastor says, Amen
WvstarwolfOAMCounselor says, Amen
Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, So, does anyone remember the 3 marks of a cult?
godslittlegirl22 says, distortion of God
Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, right
godslittlegirl22 says, distortion of works based salvation
Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, right
godslittlegirl22 says, adn geezz i cant get hte other one lol
godslittlegirl22 says, long day
Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, anybody remember?
Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, distortion of.............?
annielover2 says, distortion of jesus
Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, That falls under the first one.
Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, God, grace and........?
godslittlegirl22 says, the scriptures
Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, yes, that's it!
Chalkbrd_oam_counselor gives Hailey the gold star.
godslittlegirl22 says, thanks
Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, We need to keep those three things in mind tonight as we talk about deliverance ministries because they are the ruler that we are going to use to measure the accuracy of these teachings.
Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, First of all, we need to look up some verses in our Bibles. Do we all have our Bibles handy?
parepidemos_oam_pastor says, I do
Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Let's start with Matthew 4:24
Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, News about him spread all over Syria, and people brought to him all who were ill with various diseases, those suffering severe pain, the demon-possessed, those having seizures, and the paralyzed, and he healed them.
Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, The first thing to remember is that the word translated here as "demon-possessed" is really "demonized" in the Greek.
Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, So, by looking at this verse, is demon-possession (demonization) a biblical fact?
butterfly_h says, yes
annielover2 says, ye
annielover2 says, yes
Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Let's go to Matthew 8:16
Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, When evening came, many who were demon-possessed were brought to him, and he drove out the spirits with a word and healed all the sick.
Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, What was Jesus' way of dealing with these spirits?
annielover2 says, he drove them out
godslittlegirl22 says, the word
Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, How did He do that?
butterfly_h says, with Scripture
annielover2 says, using the word
Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Look closer....
WvstarwolfOAMCounselor says, being God
Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, it doesn't say THE word (meaning Scriptures)....it says A word.
Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Is there any indication here that when Jesus cast out the demons that they ever came back into the person?
godslittlegirl22 says, nope!
annielover2 says, no
WvstarwolfOAMCounselor says, nope
Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, What word do you think it was Jesus said? Let's turn to Matthew 8:28 to see.
Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, When he arrived at the other side in the region of the Gadarenes, two demon-possessed men coming from the tombs met him. They were so violent that no one could pass that way. 29 "What do you want with us, Son of God?" they shouted. "Have you come here to torture us before the appointed time?"
Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, MT 8:30 Some distance from them a large herd of pigs was feeding. 31 The demons begged Jesus, "If you drive us out, send us into the herd of pigs."
Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, MT 8:32 He said to them, "Go!" So they came out and went into the pigs, and the whole herd rushed down the steep bank into the lake and died in the water. 33 Those tending the pigs ran off, went into the town and reported all this, including what had happened to the demon-possessed men.
WvstarwolfOAMCounselor says, GO
annielover2 says, go
Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Did Jesus have a conversation with the demons?
Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, That's right....Jesus did not talk to the demons, all He did was say, "Go."
godslittlegirl22 says, no
Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Did the demons come back into the men?
godslittlegirl22 says, nope
annielover2 says, no
WvstarwolfOAMCounselor says, no
Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Looking at how Jesus dealt with demons is an important thing in being able to see the truth and error involving spiritual warfare.
Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Let's go back a few chapters....Matthew 7:22.
Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Many will say to me on that day, `Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23 Then I will tell them plainly, `I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'
Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Is everyone who drives out demons in the name of Jesus a Christian?
annielover2 says, no
godslittlegirl22 says, no
Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Right. Just because someone claims to drive out demons does not make them Christians.
Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, In fact, this verse tells us that there will be people who think they are doing things in the name of Jesus and Jesus is going to declare that He never knew them and that they are really evildoers.
WvstarwolfOAMCounselor says, right
Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, This is an important fact to remember. All that glitters is not gold. All who claim to do things in the name of Christ are not necessarily Christians.
Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, And in fact, in the eyes of God, they are considered evil doers.
parepidemos_oam_pastor says, Yes, teaching that are not of God under the guise of speaking for God
Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Tonight we're going to talk about the truth and the lies taught by many deliverance ministries.
Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Let's take a few moments and examine a deliverance site....take the words directly from them.
Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Can you all set up your CHeeta and your browser like you did last time? Half and half?
WvstarwolfOAMCounselor says, sure
Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, For this particular site, I've found that Netscape works better. Some of it appears weird on my browser, both in IE and Netscape so it might look funny on yours too.
Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, While you are all setting that up, I wanted to share with you some of the results of the survey I took.
Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, To the question, "Do you believe the Bible supports the idea of demons of various things such as a demon of lying, a demon of lust, a demon of promisciousness, etc.?"
parepidemos_oam_pastor says, ok
Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, 58% said no.
Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, 35 % said yes.
Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Let's look at this particular deliverance minister's information about this topic.
Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, http://www.freedomdeliverance.com/DemonGrouping.htm
godslittlegirl22 says, yep was hoping u'd go there Deb
Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, If you scroll down, you see a quite extensive chart about demons.
Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, It doesn't look too good in IE, but looks okay in Netscape.
Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Notice all of these "demons" that are listed here.
Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, bitterness, resentment, hatred, unforgiveness, violence, temper, anger, retaliation, murder.
parepidemos_oam_pastor says, lol, not much left out
WvstarwolfOAMCounselor says, doesn't look like it pare
Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Let's see what God says about bitterness.....Acts 8:20
Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Peter answered: "May your money perish with you, because you thought you could buy the gift of God with money! 21 You have no part or share in this ministry, because your heart is not right before God. 22 Repent of this wickedness and pray to the Lord. Perhaps he will forgive you for having such a thought in your heart. 23 For I see that you are full of bitterness and captive to sin."
Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, What does Peter consider bitterness to be here? Does he refer to it as a demon?
godslittlegirl22 says, nope
godslittlegirl22 says, sin
WvstarwolfOAMCounselor says, sin
Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, That's right, Hailey. Peter says that bitterness is a sin.
Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Let's turn to Ephesians 4:29
Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen. 30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. 31 Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice. 32 Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you.
Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, What about bitterness here? Is it caused by a demon?
WvstarwolfOAMCounselor says, nope
whispering_wings76 says, no
godslittlegirl22 says, nope
Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, As a matter of fact, the word "bitterness" is used 19 times in the Bible. And not one of those times is it connected in any way to a demon.
Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, What does that tell you about this man's inclusion of bitterness as caused by a demon?
godslittlegirl22 says, its false
Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Where do you think his information for this chart comes from?
parepidemos_oam_pastor says, You need him to be rid of the demon, thus making himself of importance
godslittlegirl22 says, psychiatry
godslittlegirl22 says, some dsm bookor something
Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Does it come from the Bible?
godslittlegirl22 says, nope
whispering_wings76 says, No
mrs_pare says, no
Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, That's right. What was mark number 2 of a cult?
whispering_wings76 says, reducing Jesus?
whispering_wings76 says, no reducing the bible
whispering_wings76 says, reducing something
Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, yes, reducing the authority of the Bible.
Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, In what way does this man do this on this page?
godslittlegirl22 says, didnt know them by numbered items
parepidemos_oam_pastor says, lol Bella
whispering_wings76 says, at least I knew just not in numbers
godslittlegirl22 says, he distorts the word of God
godslittlegirl22 says, thats me Bella
godslittlegirl22 says, says it to say something it dont
godslittlegirl22 says, calls simple sins demons
Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, You can see here that he adds to what the Bible says. Does the Bible give him this information? Not at all. His source is from OUTSIDE the Bible and therefore, not reliable.
Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, That's exactly it, Hailey. If you look over this list, it is a list of sins, not of demons.
Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, There is no biblical precedence for calling sins demons or saying they are caused by demons.
parepidemos_oam_pastor says, If you look behind these words, he admits they come form the book pigs in a paler, extra biblical knowledge
parepidemos_oam_pastor says, parlor
godslittlegirl22 says, lol
Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Yes, and speaking of Pigs in a Parlor, we are going to examine an extract from it.
WvstarwolfOAMCounselor says, what is that book Pare
Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Look at this. It comes from that book.
Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Demon spirits can invade and indwell human bodies. It is their objective to do so. By indwelling a person they obtain a greater advantage in controlling that person than when they are working from the outside. When demons indwell a person that person is said to "have" evil spirits, to be "with" evil spirits or to be "possessed" with demons. (See: Mark 9:17; Luke 4:33; Mark 1:23; 5:2 Matt.4: 24).
whispering_wings76 says, what is that?
godslittlegirl22 says, i thought that was some joke or something is that a book then lol
Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Yes, Pigs in the Parlor.
godslittlegirl22 says, thats a funny name for a book lol
Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, parlor = salon
Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, It's a pretty bizarre book, Hailey, I've read it.
Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, I have it somewhere, but can't find it right off.
godslittlegirl22 says, is that a deliverance type book then?
Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Anyway, so this guy (his name is Frank Hammond who wrote the book) says that demon spirits indwell human bodies.
Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Yes, it is.
Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Not one I suggest.
whispering_wings76 says, I have heard that before chalk...
godslittlegirl22 says, not one i plan on reading after knowing that dont worry
Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Okay, biblical truth or is it error: Can demons indwell human bodies?
whispering_wings76 says, yes
godslittlegirl22 says, error
whispering_wings76 says, but not Christian
godslittlegirl22 says, not Christians
Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Truth. But not Christians.
godslittlegirl22 says, ok then thats what i meant anyways lol
Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, If you read all the instances of Jesus casting out demons in the Bible, not one of the people was a Christian BEFORE.
parepidemos_oam_pastor says, However, not all who are not Christians are demon possessed either
Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, When someone becomes a Christian, who comes to live inside of them?
whispering_wings76 says, Jesus
godslittlegirl22 says, Jesus
Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Right, God Himself in the form of the Holy Spirit.
Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Can God and a demon live in the same body?
godslittlegirl22 says, no
whispering_wings76 says, no?
mrs_pare says, no
Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, That's right. God cannot co-exist with demons.
WvstarwolfOAMCounselor says, no
whispering_wings76 says, can I ask one question?
Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Sure, Bella
whispering_wings76 says, If God cannot be around Demons how did he visit hell?
godslittlegirl22 says, he visted not lived with them??
Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, am looking for the verse.
Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Doug, do you know it right off? It's in one of the Peters, isn't it?
whispering_wings76 says, The story about the man and he showed him what he was going to be if he was not careful
parepidemos_oam_pastor says, Sorry, I was away for a second
Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, 1 Peter 3:18. This is the verse people use when they say Jesus went to hell.
Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, 19 through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison 20 who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built.
Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Do you see the word "hell" anywhere in there?
whispering_wings76 says, No...
butterfly_h says, i'm sorry, i have to leave, i am too triggered by this discussion and i am getting too upset thinking about my experience. i'm sorry
whispering_wings76 says, I just knew of that story
butterfly_h leaves
Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Bella, I'm not sure I know what story you are referring to.
whispering_wings76 says, The one where the man is living on the edge and God appears and takes him to hell to show him where his wrong will take him...I guess maybe it might not be right..I learned it a long time ago
WvstarwolfOAMCounselor says, I dont remember that being in the Bible bella
whispering_wings76 says, jsut ignore me
whispering_wings76 says, LOL
Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, I'm drawing a blank on that one. I don't think it's a biblical one.
Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, But it's good to ask, Bella.
godslittlegirl22 says, i have heard it before too Bella you arent stupid!
whispering_wings76 says, that would not be suprising considering the source of the story
Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, lol
godslittlegirl22 says, several times actually
Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Let's go on with the Pigs in the Parlor book.
Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, The word translated "possessed" by the King James version is the Greek word "daimonizomai". Many Greek authorities say this is not an accurate translation. It should be translated "demonized" or "to have demons". Much misunderstanding has resulted from the use of the word "possessed". This word suggests total ownership. In this sense, a Christian could never be "demon possessed". He could not be owned by demons because he is owned by Christ.
Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Anybody see the subtle twisting here?
Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Notice....he uses Greek to try to confuse people a bit, to make himself sound more like an authority than the average person.
whispering_wings76 says, whats the difference between being possessed and having demons..they are the same thing right?
Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Yes, there is only one word used in the Bible....demonized.
Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, But the author of this wants to get away from the term "possession".
Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, The reason is because if it is given that idea of total control, then it cannot apply to a Christian....and the deliverance minister is out of a job.
Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, The author of the book goes on: The Christian should always consider indwelling spirits as unnecessary and undesirable TRESPASSERS. A trespasser is one who unlawfully and stealthily encroaches upon the territory of another. Trespassers can continue their unlawful practice until they are confronted and challenged on the basis of one's legal rights.
Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Truth or error: Christians CAN have a demon inside of them as a trespasser?
lostinthought says, k thx pare
whispering_wings76 says, no they invite them in, but since they are christians no
parepidemos_oam_pastor says, welcome
godslittlegirl22 says, error
Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Actually, my quoting is coming from http://www.freedomdeliverance.com/CanChristiansHaveADemon.htm
lostinthought sa