SWDC Deliverance Ministries Part 1


	Deliverance Ministries Part 1 Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Heavenly Father, we thank you and praise you for all that you are and for how much you love us, even when we aren't loveable. WvstarwolfOAMCounselor says, yes Father Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Tonight as we use the truth of your word to test the teachings we are going to be studying, I pray that you would open our eyes up to what you want us to know. Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Show us the truth and help us to see the error. Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, We ask this in the precious name of Jesus and for His glory alone, amen. WvstarwolfOAMCounselor says, yes Jesus parepidemos_oam_pastor says, Amen WvstarwolfOAMCounselor says, Amen Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, So, does anyone remember the 3 marks of a cult? godslittlegirl22 says, distortion of God Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, right godslittlegirl22 says, distortion of works based salvation Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, right godslittlegirl22 says, adn geezz i cant get hte other one lol godslittlegirl22 says, long day Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, anybody remember? Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, distortion of.............? annielover2 says, distortion of jesus Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, That falls under the first one. Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, God, grace and........? godslittlegirl22 says, the scriptures Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, yes, that's it! Chalkbrd_oam_counselor gives Hailey the gold star. godslittlegirl22 says, thanks Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, We need to keep those three things in mind tonight as we talk about deliverance ministries because they are the ruler that we are going to use to measure the accuracy of these teachings. Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, First of all, we need to look up some verses in our Bibles. Do we all have our Bibles handy? parepidemos_oam_pastor says, I do Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Let's start with Matthew 4:24 Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, News about him spread all over Syria, and people brought to him all who were ill with various diseases, those suffering severe pain, the demon-possessed, those having seizures, and the paralyzed, and he healed them. Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, The first thing to remember is that the word translated here as "demon-possessed" is really "demonized" in the Greek. Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, So, by looking at this verse, is demon-possession (demonization) a biblical fact? butterfly_h says, yes annielover2 says, ye annielover2 says, yes Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Let's go to Matthew 8:16 Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, When evening came, many who were demon-possessed were brought to him, and he drove out the spirits with a word and healed all the sick. Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, What was Jesus' way of dealing with these spirits? annielover2 says, he drove them out godslittlegirl22 says, the word Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, How did He do that? butterfly_h says, with Scripture annielover2 says, using the word Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Look closer.... WvstarwolfOAMCounselor says, being God Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, it doesn't say THE word (meaning Scriptures)....it says A word. Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Is there any indication here that when Jesus cast out the demons that they ever came back into the person? godslittlegirl22 says, nope! annielover2 says, no WvstarwolfOAMCounselor says, nope Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, What word do you think it was Jesus said? Let's turn to Matthew 8:28 to see. Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, When he arrived at the other side in the region of the Gadarenes, two demon-possessed men coming from the tombs met him. They were so violent that no one could pass that way. 29 "What do you want with us, Son of God?" they shouted. "Have you come here to torture us before the appointed time?" Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, MT 8:30 Some distance from them a large herd of pigs was feeding. 31 The demons begged Jesus, "If you drive us out, send us into the herd of pigs." Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, MT 8:32 He said to them, "Go!" So they came out and went into the pigs, and the whole herd rushed down the steep bank into the lake and died in the water. 33 Those tending the pigs ran off, went into the town and reported all this, including what had happened to the demon-possessed men. WvstarwolfOAMCounselor says, GO annielover2 says, go Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Did Jesus have a conversation with the demons? Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, That's right....Jesus did not talk to the demons, all He did was say, "Go." godslittlegirl22 says, no Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Did the demons come back into the men? godslittlegirl22 says, nope annielover2 says, no WvstarwolfOAMCounselor says, no Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Looking at how Jesus dealt with demons is an important thing in being able to see the truth and error involving spiritual warfare. Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Let's go back a few chapters....Matthew 7:22. Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Many will say to me on that day, `Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23 Then I will tell them plainly, `I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!' Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Is everyone who drives out demons in the name of Jesus a Christian? annielover2 says, no godslittlegirl22 says, no Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Right. Just because someone claims to drive out demons does not make them Christians. Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, In fact, this verse tells us that there will be people who think they are doing things in the name of Jesus and Jesus is going to declare that He never knew them and that they are really evildoers. WvstarwolfOAMCounselor says, right Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, This is an important fact to remember. All that glitters is not gold. All who claim to do things in the name of Christ are not necessarily Christians. Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, And in fact, in the eyes of God, they are considered evil doers. parepidemos_oam_pastor says, Yes, teaching that are not of God under the guise of speaking for God Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Tonight we're going to talk about the truth and the lies taught by many deliverance ministries. Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Let's take a few moments and examine a deliverance site....take the words directly from them. Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Can you all set up your CHeeta and your browser like you did last time? Half and half? WvstarwolfOAMCounselor says, sure Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, For this particular site, I've found that Netscape works better. Some of it appears weird on my browser, both in IE and Netscape so it might look funny on yours too. Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, While you are all setting that up, I wanted to share with you some of the results of the survey I took. Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, To the question, "Do you believe the Bible supports the idea of demons of various things such as a demon of lying, a demon of lust, a demon of promisciousness, etc.?" parepidemos_oam_pastor says, ok Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, 58% said no. Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, 35 % said yes. Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Let's look at this particular deliverance minister's information about this topic. Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, http://www.freedomdeliverance.com/DemonGrouping.htm godslittlegirl22 says, yep was hoping u'd go there Deb Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, If you scroll down, you see a quite extensive chart about demons. Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, It doesn't look too good in IE, but looks okay in Netscape. Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Notice all of these "demons" that are listed here. Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, bitterness, resentment, hatred, unforgiveness, violence, temper, anger, retaliation, murder. parepidemos_oam_pastor says, lol, not much left out WvstarwolfOAMCounselor says, doesn't look like it pare Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Let's see what God says about bitterness.....Acts 8:20 Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Peter answered: "May your money perish with you, because you thought you could buy the gift of God with money! 21 You have no part or share in this ministry, because your heart is not right before God. 22 Repent of this wickedness and pray to the Lord. Perhaps he will forgive you for having such a thought in your heart. 23 For I see that you are full of bitterness and captive to sin." Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, What does Peter consider bitterness to be here? Does he refer to it as a demon? godslittlegirl22 says, nope godslittlegirl22 says, sin WvstarwolfOAMCounselor says, sin Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, That's right, Hailey. Peter says that bitterness is a sin. Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Let's turn to Ephesians 4:29 Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen. 30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. 31 Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice. 32 Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you. Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, What about bitterness here? Is it caused by a demon? WvstarwolfOAMCounselor says, nope whispering_wings76 says, no godslittlegirl22 says, nope Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, As a matter of fact, the word "bitterness" is used 19 times in the Bible. And not one of those times is it connected in any way to a demon. Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, What does that tell you about this man's inclusion of bitterness as caused by a demon? godslittlegirl22 says, its false Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Where do you think his information for this chart comes from? parepidemos_oam_pastor says, You need him to be rid of the demon, thus making himself of importance godslittlegirl22 says, psychiatry godslittlegirl22 says, some dsm bookor something Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Does it come from the Bible? godslittlegirl22 says, nope whispering_wings76 says, No mrs_pare says, no Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, That's right. What was mark number 2 of a cult? whispering_wings76 says, reducing Jesus? whispering_wings76 says, no reducing the bible whispering_wings76 says, reducing something Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, yes, reducing the authority of the Bible. Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, In what way does this man do this on this page? godslittlegirl22 says, didnt know them by numbered items parepidemos_oam_pastor says, lol Bella whispering_wings76 says, at least I knew just not in numbers godslittlegirl22 says, he distorts the word of God godslittlegirl22 says, thats me Bella godslittlegirl22 says, says it to say something it dont godslittlegirl22 says, calls simple sins demons Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, You can see here that he adds to what the Bible says. Does the Bible give him this information? Not at all. His source is from OUTSIDE the Bible and therefore, not reliable. Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, That's exactly it, Hailey. If you look over this list, it is a list of sins, not of demons. Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, There is no biblical precedence for calling sins demons or saying they are caused by demons. parepidemos_oam_pastor says, If you look behind these words, he admits they come form the book pigs in a paler, extra biblical knowledge parepidemos_oam_pastor says, parlor godslittlegirl22 says, lol Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Yes, and speaking of Pigs in a Parlor, we are going to examine an extract from it. WvstarwolfOAMCounselor says, what is that book Pare Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Look at this. It comes from that book. Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Demon spirits can invade and indwell human bodies. It is their objective to do so. By indwelling a person they obtain a greater advantage in controlling that person than when they are working from the outside. When demons indwell a person that person is said to "have" evil spirits, to be "with" evil spirits or to be "possessed" with demons. (See: Mark 9:17; Luke 4:33; Mark 1:23; 5:2 Matt.4: 24). whispering_wings76 says, what is that? godslittlegirl22 says, i thought that was some joke or something is that a book then lol Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Yes, Pigs in the Parlor. godslittlegirl22 says, thats a funny name for a book lol Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, parlor = salon Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, It's a pretty bizarre book, Hailey, I've read it. Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, I have it somewhere, but can't find it right off. godslittlegirl22 says, is that a deliverance type book then? Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Anyway, so this guy (his name is Frank Hammond who wrote the book) says that demon spirits indwell human bodies. Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Yes, it is. Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Not one I suggest. whispering_wings76 says, I have heard that before chalk... godslittlegirl22 says, not one i plan on reading after knowing that dont worry Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Okay, biblical truth or is it error: Can demons indwell human bodies? whispering_wings76 says, yes godslittlegirl22 says, error whispering_wings76 says, but not Christian godslittlegirl22 says, not Christians Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Truth. But not Christians. godslittlegirl22 says, ok then thats what i meant anyways lol Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, If you read all the instances of Jesus casting out demons in the Bible, not one of the people was a Christian BEFORE. parepidemos_oam_pastor says, However, not all who are not Christians are demon possessed either Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, When someone becomes a Christian, who comes to live inside of them? whispering_wings76 says, Jesus godslittlegirl22 says, Jesus Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Right, God Himself in the form of the Holy Spirit. Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Can God and a demon live in the same body? godslittlegirl22 says, no whispering_wings76 says, no? mrs_pare says, no Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, That's right. God cannot co-exist with demons. WvstarwolfOAMCounselor says, no whispering_wings76 says, can I ask one question? Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Sure, Bella whispering_wings76 says, If God cannot be around Demons how did he visit hell? godslittlegirl22 says, he visted not lived with them?? Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, am looking for the verse. Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Doug, do you know it right off? It's in one of the Peters, isn't it? whispering_wings76 says, The story about the man and he showed him what he was going to be if he was not careful parepidemos_oam_pastor says, Sorry, I was away for a second Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, 1 Peter 3:18. This is the verse people use when they say Jesus went to hell. Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, 19 through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison 20 who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Do you see the word "hell" anywhere in there? whispering_wings76 says, No... butterfly_h says, i'm sorry, i have to leave, i am too triggered by this discussion and i am getting too upset thinking about my experience. i'm sorry whispering_wings76 says, I just knew of that story butterfly_h leaves Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Bella, I'm not sure I know what story you are referring to. whispering_wings76 says, The one where the man is living on the edge and God appears and takes him to hell to show him where his wrong will take him...I guess maybe it might not be right..I learned it a long time ago WvstarwolfOAMCounselor says, I dont remember that being in the Bible bella whispering_wings76 says, jsut ignore me whispering_wings76 says, LOL Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, I'm drawing a blank on that one. I don't think it's a biblical one. Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, But it's good to ask, Bella. godslittlegirl22 says, i have heard it before too Bella you arent stupid! whispering_wings76 says, that would not be suprising considering the source of the story Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, lol godslittlegirl22 says, several times actually Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Let's go on with the Pigs in the Parlor book. Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, The word translated "possessed" by the King James version is the Greek word "daimonizomai". Many Greek authorities say this is not an accurate translation. It should be translated "demonized" or "to have demons". Much misunderstanding has resulted from the use of the word "possessed". This word suggests total ownership. In this sense, a Christian could never be "demon possessed". He could not be owned by demons because he is owned by Christ. Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Anybody see the subtle twisting here? Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Notice....he uses Greek to try to confuse people a bit, to make himself sound more like an authority than the average person. whispering_wings76 says, whats the difference between being possessed and having demons..they are the same thing right? Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Yes, there is only one word used in the Bible....demonized. Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, But the author of this wants to get away from the term "possession". Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, The reason is because if it is given that idea of total control, then it cannot apply to a Christian....and the deliverance minister is out of a job. Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, The author of the book goes on: The Christian should always consider indwelling spirits as unnecessary and undesirable TRESPASSERS. A trespasser is one who unlawfully and stealthily encroaches upon the territory of another. Trespassers can continue their unlawful practice until they are confronted and challenged on the basis of one's legal rights. Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Truth or error: Christians CAN have a demon inside of them as a trespasser? lostinthought says, k thx pare whispering_wings76 says, no they invite them in, but since they are christians no parepidemos_oam_pastor says, welcome godslittlegirl22 says, error Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Actually, my quoting is coming from http://www.freedomdeliverance.com/CanChristiansHaveADemon.htm lostinthought says, k Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, If a Christian cannot have a demon inside, how can it have one as a trespasser? There can be no demons within the Christian so this man is basing his entire ministry on a faulty foundation. whispering_wings76 says, I have another question whispering_wings76 says, sorry Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, go ahead, Bella. parepidemos_oam_pastor says, exactly, word games to confuse whispering_wings76 says, I was always told that if you were under the influence of demons you were not a Christian living a right life..you stepped away and allowed entrance. Is that waht he means? Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, That's what he's saying. But that is not biblical. whispering_wings76 says, I am not justifying it, just trying to understand Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, If you are a Christian, you cannot have a demon inside of you. Period. Nothing you can do can ever change that. whispering_wings76 says, and since your salvation is secure you cannot step away right? annielover2 says, where are we whispering_wings76 says, and no stepping away means no demons? Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Right. parepidemos_oam_pastor says, We know Bella, and asking questions is how we find answers. Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Let's go on with what he says: Jesus has purchased the believer with His own blood and has made him a steward over his own life. The devil has no legal right over him; it is up to him to defend his rights. No demon can remain when the Christian seriously desires him to go! "Resist the devil and he will flee from you" James 4:7b Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Everyone look at James 4:7. parepidemos_oam_pastor says, scroll up Mary, and click on the past url Deb posted parepidemos_oam_pastor says, past=last Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, This is an entire passage that we must consider together (remember to always look at the context). Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Submit yourselves, then, to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. 8 Come near to God and he will come near to you. Wash your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded. 9 Grieve, mourn and wail. Change your laughter to mourning and your joy to gloom. 10 Humble yourselves before the Lord, and he will lift you up. annielover2 says, i can't Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, According to this passage in James, how do we resist the devil? Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, http://www.freedomdeliverance.com/CanChristiansHaveADemon.htm whispering_wings76 says, by submitting ourselfs to god? whispering_wings76 says, ourselves too Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Right. We submit ourselves to God and come near to Him. Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, This is how this passage talks about resisting the devil. Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Do you see any mention about us rebuking the devil? godslittlegirl22 says, nope whispering_wings76 says, no Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, That's right. Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, In fact, the word rebuke is an interesting study.... annielover2 says, resist the devi; Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, In Mark 17:3, we are told to rebuke our brother if he sins. Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, in Luke 19:39, the Pharisees told Jesus to rebuke His disciples. butterfly_h enters Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, In 2 Timothy 4:2, we are told to rebuke and encourage each other. parepidemos_oam_pastor says, wb Holly, hugs Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, In Titus 1:13 we are told to rebuke those who teach false doctrines. parepidemos_oam_pastor says, rebuke= to criticize sharply : REPRIMAND b : to serve as a rebuke to Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, In Titus 2:15 we are told to rebuke with all authority....and it is referring again to our Christian brothers and sisters. parepidemos_oam_pastor says, to turn back or keep down : CHECK whispering_wings76 says, thats biblical? Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Yes, it is, Wings. But always done with a goal of love. whispering_wings76 says, wow they actually did something biblical Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, But the most interesting verse is in Jude. Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Jude 9 Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not dare to bring a slanderous accusation against him, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!" 10 Yet these men speak abusively against whatever they do not understand; and what things they do understand by instinct, like unreasoning animals--these are the very things that destroy them. parepidemos_oam_pastor says, lol, but it all has to do with motivation Bella Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Look at that quote there....."The Lord rebuke you." parepidemos_oam_pastor says, if they rebuke to keep you in a state of fear, then that is not godly Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, No where in the Bible are we told to rebuke any demon. Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, And here, we see that even the archangel Michael did not say I rebuke you....but THE LORD rebuke you. Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, We have no business at all saying "I" rebuke you to a demon. Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, To do so oversteps our boundaries and takes authority away from God. whispering_wings76 says, man... Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Let me keep posting there in Jude...I think it makes quite a statement. Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, JUDE 1:11 Woe to them! They have taken the way of Cain; they have rushed for profit into Balaam's error; they have been destroyed in Korah's rebellion. Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, UDE 1:12 These men are blemishes at your love feasts, eating with you without the slightest qualm--shepherds who feed only themselves. They are clouds without rain, blown along by the wind; autumn trees, without fruit and uprooted--twice dead. 13 They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shame; wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever. Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Wow, does that describe Barry or what? I'm sorry....personal opinion there. godslittlegirl22 says, lol annielover2 says, lol godslittlegirl22 says, yes indeed whispering_wings76 says, Who is Barry? annielover2 says, yep Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, "Shepherds who feed only themselves." Wow. godslittlegirl22 says, meet him in person that will help the desciption lol Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Barry is the author of this website we are looking at. whispering_wings76 says, oh ok..sorry Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, The next quote from the Pigs book is something to look at carefully: I have often heard evil spirits declare, "This is my house." Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Remember mark 2? whispering_wings76 says, reducing the bible? Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Yes, what does this man use in place of the Bible here? whispering_wings76 says, I have no idea godslittlegirl22 says, the book? Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Look carefully..."I" have often heard..... godslittlegirl22 says, himself whispering_wings76 says, his own thought Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, yes, his own experiences. whispering_wings76 says, or experieence? Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Deliverance ministers will often use their own "experiences" to be the basis of their knowledge about demons. Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Has everyone here heard of Neil Anderson? whispering_wings76 says, isn;t that the truth godslittlegirl22 says, yes whispering_wings76 says, Oh pick me! mrs_pare says, yes Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, lol annielover2 says, no godslittlegirl22 says, the book "the Bondage Breaker" Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Yes, The Bondage Maker....uh...Breaker. whispering_wings76 says, one sec godslittlegirl22 says, Jo had me to buy that one godslittlegirl22 says, lol Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, In one of Anderson's books, and I really can't say which one at this point, he gives the source of much of his information on demons from a man who was demon possessed and the demons would talk to Anderson. Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Is this a biblical source of information about demons? annielover2 says, no godslittlegirl22 says, no mrs_pare says, no Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, As you can see, Anderson does not rely on what God's word says about demons but he believes more needs to be added to it....his own experiences. Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, This is common to many deliverance ministers. Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Deliverance ministries add more to what they "know" about demons from their experiences and the experiences of others. Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, This is in essence adding more to the Bible and by doing so, they are distorting the authority of the Bible. Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Now, we've dealt with the one mark and they do fit that....now, let's tackle the other two...because they are connected. mrs_pare says, ok Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Do you believe the Bible is true when it makes a statement? whispering_wings76 says, yes mrs_pare says, yes Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, When Jesus said something, was He telling the truth or lying? whispering_wings76 says, trurh whispering_wings76 says, truth too Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, So how does this verse, this statement from Jesus, and deliverance ministries match up? John 8:36 So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed. parepidemos_oam_pastor says, For one thing, that is exclusionary to anybody outside of Christ whispering_wings76 says, I have no idea Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Deliverance ministries say that even though you are a Christian, you can still be bothered by demons setting up shop inside of you. whispering_wings76 says, because you stepped away and allowed them to but you can't so they you never did and they never did Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, But Jesus said that He is the one who has set people free...and the freedom comes when we first come to know Him. parepidemos_oam_pastor says, What I meant by that is that only the Son sets man free and does not need the help of mortal man. whispering_wings76 says, I have a question..sorry Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Jesus is the one to set us free. And if His death on the cross didn't free us from SOME things, then did it really free us at all? whispering_wings76 says, nevermind I do not understand my question Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, lol, Bella whispering_wings76 says, When you get prayed over, they always say in the power of God, in the name of God, in the name of Jesus, so isn;t that the same? Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, If we, as Christians, need to have a man (a deliverance minister) deliver us, then what in the world did Jesus die for anyway? whispering_wings76 says, not that I think it is, because if it is not, then I do not but if it is then I do godslittlegirl22 says, for the fun of it, in that case lol Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Bella, were you here when we went over Matthew 7:22? Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Many will say to me on that day, `Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23 Then I will tell them plainly, `I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!' whispering_wings76 says, NO I was not whispering_wings76 says, sorry thats my fault Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Just because they use the name of Jesus, doesn't mean they are doing His work. whispering_wings76 says, ok mrs_pare says, right Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, In fact, when someone is trying to "cast" a demon out of a Christian.... Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, he is NOT doing it God's work. whispering_wings76 says, ok sorry Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, sorry, he is NOT doing God's work. Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, The reason is that if he tries to "cast" a demon out of a Christian, he is basically saying that what Jesus did wasn't enough.... parepidemos_oam_pastor says, Right, because there are no demons to be cast out in a Christian period whispering_wings76 says, ok Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, and that he (the deliverance minister) has to finish the work that Jesus wasn't good enough to do. godslittlegirl22 says, a works based salvation Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Remember mark 1? Reduces God. Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, This is pulling God down and exalting man.... Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Man becomes the savior and God is relegated to a poor screw-up who couldn't do things right. Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Man has to come along and save the day. Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, And like Hailey said, it is a works-based salvation then. Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, We are no longer saved through the grace of God, totally apart from our own works..... godslittlegirl22 says, but thru man! Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, We are now saved through our own efforts and the efforts of a man....the deliverance minister. godslittlegirl22 says, sorry Deb lol i'm hyper on this tonight lol Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, I'm not sure about the rest of you, but whenever I start thinking like this, I can see it so clearly...and it really makes me angry at the men who do this kind of stuff! parepidemos_oam_pastor says, Right, it is works based because then that makes our salvation dependent upon keeping "demons" cast out. Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, How arrogant of them to think that they can take the place of the Son of God who gave His life for us! parepidemos_oam_pastor says, and of course with the help of the deliverance minister making him our savior Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Jesus said, "It is finished." There is nothing else WE can ever add to that! whispering_wings76 says, they do not think that.. mrs_pare says, right whispering_wings76 says, they just don't Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, I know they don't, Bella. And they don't want to see it. parepidemos_oam_pastor says, I know they don't think that Bella, but it certainly is implied butterfly_h says, some of them make a difference between possession and oppression whispering_wings76 says, my parents they don't.. parepidemos_oam_pastor says, Right Holly, but there isn't a difference whispering_wings76 says, nevermind.. whispering_wings76 says, I am too confused to say anything Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Doesn't matter, Holly. It's the same thing. The Bible makes no distinction. Only one word is ever used. godslittlegirl22 says, Yes Holly they sure do godslittlegirl22 says, a christain can be oppressed but not possessed so "THEY" say parepidemos_oam_pastor says, Hugs Bella, it gets clearer as time goes on Bella. Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, And even if it were different, it's still the idea. They still are the ones who are "saving" the people from the demons instead of Jesus. Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, We have ALREADY been set free. butterfly_h says, and you are threatened again and again about opening doorways for the demons to enter your life parepidemos_oam_pastor says, It really is simple, it they say they are "casting out", then of course this is saying they are within. Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, We don't need a deliverance minister to keep trying to set us free.....that insults what Jesus did on the cross. godslittlegirl22 says, yep parepidemos_oam_pastor says, exactly Holly Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Fear, intimidation....it keeps their ministries alive. godslittlegirl22 says, I know all about that too Holly! Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, If you read the front page of this site we are at, you can see that he phrases things in a way that makes you feel guilty and scares you into thinking you surely need HIS help to be free. butterfly_h says, it is scary butterfly_h says, i'm sorry i need to be quiet godslittlegirl22 says, HIS help=not much at all sorry thats personal opinion too lol parepidemos_oam_pastor says, Look at that list again, I mean, with that list, there is NOBODY who is not possessed, that is plain silly when one reads that list parepidemos_oam_pastor says, no Holly, please join in Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, It's fine, Holly. You have some very good insights to add. Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, I know....every person in the world would be possessed according to his definition. Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Including him. godslittlegirl22 says, lol Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Which is another whole issue....right, Hailey? godslittlegirl22 says, YEP sure is parepidemos_oam_pastor says, right Deb, but that is the other thing, they are implying they are not guilty of anything on that list. butterfly_h says, people who are involved in this see demons in every corner parepidemos_oam_pastor says, otherwords, sinless whispering_wings76 says, because they are delievered whispering_wings76 says, entire sanctification Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Right. And we know for sure that this particular deliverance minister is living with a woman who is not his wife. Isn't adultery on that list? parepidemos_oam_pastor says, right Bella godslittlegirl22 says, and he is STILL legally married godslittlegirl22 says, add that godslittlegirl22 says, no divorce from the other one yet Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, But nobody can be entirely sanctified in this life, Bella. whispering_wings76 says, You already told me that. whispering_wings76 says, Someone better tell my dad that whispering_wings76 says, LOL Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Amazing. And what is even more amazing is that people know this man is doing these things but still they go to him for "help". parepidemos_oam_pastor says, lol Bella godslittlegirl22 says, oh and so much more on santa's list godslittlegirl22 says, but keeps quite Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Bella, 1 John 1:8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. whispering_wings76 says, yeah... parepidemos_oam_pastor says, sanctification is a life long process that nobody will obtain in this life. parepidemos_oam_pastor says, The completion is only at the time that we are with Jesus. Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, I'm sorry, everyone...I kind of got carried away tonight....much longer than I had anticipated. Next week we are going to go through Anderson's "7 Steps to Freedom" and check them out to see if they are biblical. godslittlegirl22 says, oh my that will be a treat lol godslittlegirl22 says, i can alreayd tell you they arent parepidemos_oam_pastor says, There is so much to cover on this subject Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, You peeked, Hailey! godslittlegirl22 says, no i just know that lol parepidemos_oam_pastor says, if we had time, we could show from their own sites how they imply they are co-saviors with Christ Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Yes, and if you read their sites with these ideas in mind, the truth starts jumping out at you. godslittlegirl22 says, or "little gods" dad whispering_wings76 says, they do not claim to be god. Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, You can see how they try to make other people dependent on THEM instead of on Christ. parepidemos_oam_pastor says, exactly Hailey whispering_wings76 says, but really it does not matter huh? godslittlegirl22 says, yes in a round about beat around the bush way they do Bella Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, They never say it in those words, Bella...or at least most don't...but the idea is there. whispering_wings76 says, I am gonna whispering_wings76 says, have a good night parepidemos_oam_pastor says, Good night Bella hugs Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, May God's blessings go with you, Bella! HUGS! whispering_wings76 says, I'll see yu all soon whispering_wings76 leaves godslittlegirl22 says, whoops sorry Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, I didn't officially say this, but.... * the end *

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