SWDC Catholicism and the 3 Marks of a Cult


	Catholicism and the 3 Marks of a Cult Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Heavenly Father, we thank you for providing us with this way to be together, even though we are all so far apart. parepidemos_oam_pastor says, Yes Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, We ask that you will help us tonight to focus in on what you want us to learn. annielover2 says, YES LORD Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Help us to block out all the other distractions that are in our minds. WvstarwolfOAMCounselor says, yes Lord annielover2 says, YES JESUS Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Turn our eyes on you and you alone. annielover2 says, YES ABBA Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Help us to be open to your Holy Spirit's leading. annielover2 says, YES FATHER Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, We ask this for your glory, and your glory alone, Father, amen. annielover2 says, AMEN parepidemos_oam_pastor says, amen WvstarwolfOAMCounselor says, Amen Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Without looking anywhere, can anyone tell me what the 3 marks of a cult are? (Review from last week.) mrs_pare says, amen whispering_wings76 says, Reduceing Jesus, Reducing the Bible, and Reducing Grace WvstarwolfOAMCounselor says, distortion of God annielover2 says, AGRESS Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Good job, Bella! Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, And Donna! WvstarwolfOAMCounselor says, distortion of the Bible and distortion of grace whispering_wings76 says, I paid attention parepidemos_oam_pastor says, Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Tonight we're going to examine another set of beliefs and see how they match up to those 3 marks of a cult. Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, We were accused last night of bashing Catholics. parepidemos_oam_pastor says, yep annielover2 says, YEA annielover2 says, AND DM WAAS THERE TO Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, But remember, it is not "bashing" someone to show them the truth. whispering_wings76 says, i missed tht WvstarwolfOAMCounselor says, yep Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Has anyone here ever seen an old movie called, Logan's Run? whispering_wings76 says, no annielover2 says, NOPE WvstarwolfOAMCounselor says, yes I have Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, It was a sci-fi movie from the 80's....... mrs_pare says, no parepidemos_oam_pastor says, Only heard of it Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, In this society, people went through a special "ceremony" when they turned 30. WvstarwolfOAMCounselor says, right Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, It was said that they were given special new lives through this ceremony..... Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, but in reality, it was just a way to kill off people that this society considered "over the hill." Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Would it have been "bashing" those people to say, Hey, don't go into that ceremony....it's just their way of killing you? Dragtaur enters Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Hi, Drag annielover2 says, NO WvstarwolfOAMCounselor says, hi drag WvstarwolfOAMCounselor says, no annielover2 says, HI DRAG Dragtaur leaves Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Bashing comes when people are critical with the intention of making themselves feel superior. WvstarwolfOAMCounselor is away (be right back) Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, It is actually very loving to tell someone the truth. parepidemos_oam_pastor says, Even if not construed that way Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, But most of us don't like to hear the truth when it involves something we hold dear. annielover2 says, RIGHT Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Tonight we're going to talk about Catholicism and I'm going to let you compare it to our 3 marks of a cult and see if it falls under that or not. annielover2 says, OK Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Mark number one? whispering_wings76 says, Reducing Jesus annielover2 says, REDICING JESUS Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Right, changing who God really is. Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Let's see how your logic is. Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Mary is the mother of Jesus and Jesus is God, so therefore Mary is the Mother of God, right? whispering_wings76 says, No annielover2 says, NO whispering_wings76 says, Thats not right WvstarwolfOAMCounselor is back. mrs_pare says, no parepidemos_oam_pastor says, wb Wolfer. whispering_wings76 says, God was before Mary annielover2 says, MARY IS JUST THE MOTHER OF JESUS THAT WAS ALL WvstarwolfOAMCounselor says, thx doug! whispering_wings76 says, She was chosen to give birth to Jesus Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, But Jesus is God. whispering_wings76 says, she did not birth God whispering_wings76 says, God has always been annielover2 says, JESUS IS THE SON OF GOD\ whispering_wings76 says, He did not need to be birthed Indomitable enters annielover2 says, HI INDOMITABLE WvstarwolfOAMCounselor says, hi indomitable Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, But Jesus is God Himself.....so, why wouldn't it follow that Mary, who is the mother of Jesus, is also the mother of God? Indomitable leaves whispering_wings76 says, Because it does not work that way..Jesus is God in skin... WvstarwolfOAMCounselor says, because God didnt need to use Mary whispering_wings76 says, He made himself someine with skin annielover2 says, RIGHT parepidemos_oam_pastor says, Because this would mean that Mary would have to be God as well. Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Right....in order to give birth to God, Mary would also have to be a god. parepidemos_oam_pastor says, Sound a little Paganish? Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Mary is NOT the mother of God (meaning Jesus' divinity), but only of His humanity. Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, But most Catholics have never thought through this point. Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, They have been told since they were little that Mary is the Mother of God.....this is a belief that is very dear to their hearts. Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, It's hard for them to hear someone show them logically how it's not possible. whispering_wings76 says, If Mary were the mother of God, then God would have to be the fried egg instead of the shell, white and yoke right? parepidemos_oam_pastor says, In a matter of speaking, I suppose so Bella. whispering_wings76 says, just checking Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, But you must understand this basic principle of how Catholics view Mary....because it effects everything else we're going to talk about tonight. Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Now, in order for Mary to be "the Mother of God", she had to be a perfect vessel.... Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, What do you think they mean when they say she was a "perfect vessel"? annielover2 says, SINLESS Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, exactly. whispering_wings76 says, Holy? Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, So, it is their belief that Mary had to be sinless in order to be "good enough" to give birth to God. Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Do any of you think Mary is sinless? WvstarwolfOAMCounselor says, hi jackal whispering_wings76 says, No whispering_wings76 says, she cannot be annielover2 says, NO WvstarwolfOAMCounselor says, no she isn't mrs_pare says, no Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, How can we know for sure that she is not sinless? whispering_wings76 says, well I suppose she might be now, but not then whispering_wings76 says, It says in the bible that noone is sinless until they go to heaven parepidemos_oam_pastor says, right Wings whispering_wings76 says, so when mary had jesus chances is she was not Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Romans 3:23 For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. whispering_wings76 says, but if she is in heaven she may be now. Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Not just chances, Bella, but for sure. Mary was a sinner just like we are. whispering_wings76 says, yes Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, She cannot possibly have been sinless. Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, However, the Catholic teaching is that Mary was sinless her entire life. whispering_wings76 says, you cannot be sinless while alive.. whispering_wings76 says, no matter what WvstarwolfOAMCounselor says, Amen bella Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, (Also, that she remained a virgin her entire life...but that's another tangent.) parepidemos_oam_pastor says, Correct Bella Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Right, Bella. whispering_wings76 says, I have to keep reminding myself that..I think iof my church with their belief Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Now, because Mary was an essential part of God's plan, the Catholics say that what Jesus did couldn't have happened without her. Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Therefore, she actually is part of the salvation process. whispering_wings76 says, Mary is? Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Yes, Bella. whispering_wings76 says, ok sorry Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, The teachings of the Catholic church can be found in their "catechism" which is a set of teachings about faith. Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, In the Catholic catechism, we read about Mary. Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation…Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix. Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Does anyone know what a Mediatrix is? whispering_wings76 says, whats Annunciation and Mediatrix mean? annielover2 says, mno whispering_wings76 says, oops beat me to it parepidemos_oam_pastor says, Mediator? Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, yes, it is the feminine form of the word Mediator. whispering_wings76 says, whats the fulfillment of the elect? WvstarwolfOAMCounselor leaves Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, That would be when God takes us all to Himself. WvstarwolfOAMCounselor enters whispering_wings76 says, oh Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Don't let all those theological terms get you.... parepidemos_oam_pastor says, wb Wolfer whispering_wings76 says, ok Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, look at the basic thing they are trying to say..... Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Mary has now earned the title of "Mediator". godslittlegirl22 says, sure will Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Now, turn to 1 Timothy 2:5 godslittlegirl22 says, whoops sorry Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all men--the testimony given in its proper time. Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, How do those two things match up? whispering_wings76 says, you mean what the catholiques say and what the bible says?? whispering_wings76 says, it does not Josha enters Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Right.....the Catholics are saying that Mary is part of the redemption we have.....but the Bible says no, only Jesus, no other mediator. annielover2 says, hi josha Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Basically, they are saying that Mary is right up there with God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. How does that line up with our Mark 1? Josha says, Hello. whispering_wings76 says, Mary takes the same role as Jesus whispering_wings76 says, making him seem less important annielover2 leaves Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, And the Trinity becomes a Quartet. Josha says, There are a lot of things wrong with the Catholic faith. WvstarwolfOAMCounselor leaves Josha says, More then just mary. whispering_wings76 says, man its hard enough to get when there is just 3 to the tinity Josha says, What of all of these "Saints"? Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Stick with me, Josha....we're comparing Catholicism to our 3 marks of a cult. Josha says, And they treat the pope like god himself. Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, So, would you say it fits mark 1, everyone? Josha says, Three marks of a cult, eh? Josha says, ANd that would be..? whispering_wings76 says, yes it would Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Mark 1: distortion of the personhood of God. Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Mark 2: distortion of the authority of the word of God. Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Mark 3: distortion of the gospel of grace. Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, The Catholics believe that we can rely, not only on the Bible.... Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, but even more importantly on the traditions of the catholic church. Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Traditions take on more of an importance than what the Bible says. Josha says, But whatever they decide to tag onto it? Including those extra books in their own lil' bibles? I don't quite remember the names of any of them...But my mother is a Catholic. I should ask her for one of her bibles.. Josha says, Chalk, Am I disturbing you? Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Yes, the apocrypha....extra writings. Josha says, 'Cause I'll shush if need be. Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, And that fits in just perfectly with our number 2 mark... Mom2Candice enters Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Adding to or detracting from the Bible as authority. Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Hi, April Mom2Candice says, Hi Deb parepidemos_oam_pastor says, Hi April Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Let's see what Colossians 2:8 says about traditions. Mom2Candice says, Hi Doug Josha leaves Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ. Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, So, does it fit mark 2? parepidemos_oam_pastor says, Yes it does. whispering_wings76 says, so they have more books of the bible? Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, yes, they do, Bella. Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, They are books that are considered historical by Jews, but not as divinely inspired. whispering_wings76 says, and that takes away rom the bible? Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, No, it adds to the Bible. parepidemos_oam_pastor says, Yes Bella, books but mostly, tradition is considered to be superior to the written word on matters of doctrine. Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Just like the Mormons add the book of Mormon. whispering_wings76 says, oh... whispering_wings76 says, so by adding they are taking away Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Adding things to what the Bible says is just as dangerous as taking things away. Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Yes, it takes the authority away from the REAL divinely inspired words and gives it to other words, words of men. WvstarwolfOAMCounselor enters whispering_wings76 says, I guess I am not understanding why adding is tradition whispering_wings76 says, and its ok you can keep going Mom2Candice says, Hi Donna whispering_wings76 says, I will figure it out.. Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Okay. WvstarwolfOAMCounselor says, hi candace Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Mark 3 is distorting the gospel of grace. parepidemos_oam_pastor says, Tradition, the things the Pope's have decided on matters of doctrine Bella whispering_wings76 says, sorry pare I will figure it ou. Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Has anyone ever heard of purgatory? parepidemos_oam_pastor says, for instance elevating Mary as co-redeemer, that did not come about through study of the bible but by a declaration of the traditino of the church whispering_wings76 says, yes mrs_pare says, yes WvstarwolfOAMCounselor says, yes Deb whispering_wings76 says, tharts tradition pare? parepidemos_oam_pastor says, yes Bella whispering_wings76 says, oh Mom2Candice leaves whispering_wings76 says, so their made up things are their tradition parepidemos_oam_pastor says, yes. whispering_wings76 says, I understand now whispering_wings76 says, sorry Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Purgatory is kind of like a holding area for people after they die. Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, When someone dies, and they have lived a relatively good life, they will go to purgatory so they can work off all the bad things they did. Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Let's see a bit about what the catechism says about it. whispering_wings76 says, hmm Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven WvstarwolfOAMCounselor says, deb is there a website that you are looking at to get this info? Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, lol, the OAM book. parepidemos_oam_pastor says, lol whispering_wings76 says, How can you be in gods grace and not assurred of your eternity WvstarwolfOAMCounselor says, ok........lol whispering_wings76 says, isn't that the point of it all? Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, notice that little phrase.... Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, "still imperfectly purified." Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Who purifies us? whispering_wings76 says, God Mom2Candice enters Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Does God do things imperfectly? WvstarwolfOAMCounselor says, wb April Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, wb, April whispering_wings76 says, No WvstarwolfOAMCounselor says, no parepidemos_oam_pastor says, from their own Catholic Encyclopedia that is recognized by all Catholics Mom2Candice says, ty Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Isn't this statement telling us that God couldn't do the whole job so He needs OUR help to finish it? parepidemos_oam_pastor says, wb April whispering_wings76 says, I'd say so Disattached enters Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, How can someone who is living under this kind of law be saved through the gospel of grace? WvstarwolfOAMCounselor says, hi disattached WvstarwolfOAMCounselor says, yes Disattached says, Hi. Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, If grace means we can't possibly do anything to earn our salvation, then how can we have to work for it? Disattached leaves whispering_wings76 says, well they do not belive they are if they thing that they have to do something Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Don't these two ideas contradict each other? Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Also, salvation doesn't come through Jesus alone, but through the Catholic Church. lori_xoxoxo_3 enters Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, This is why Catholics baptize their babies as soon as they can..... whispering_wings76 says, wow Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, to make sure they are saved. WvstarwolfOAMCounselor says, hi lori Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, If you notice, what we have looked at tonight fits all 3 of the marks of a cult. lori_xoxoxo_3 says, hiWv Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, But here's the interesting thing. Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Most Catholics you will talk to really don't know that this is what their church teaches. lori_xoxoxo_3 leaves Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, I mean, they may know on some level, but I've talked to many who don't believe these things...even though the catechism says it. Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, By the way, you can buy a Catholic catechism book...they are available at most bookstores. Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, That's why it's good sometimes to have a catechism book so you can name the paragraph and show them what their church really does teach. whispering_wings76 says, Do they think that they will all go to heaven believing that? WvstarwolfOAMCounselor says, yes bella whispering_wings76 says, Kind of sad Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Yes, Bella. As long as you are a member of the catholic church and you try to live a good life, you'll make it to purgatory and then you eventually get to heaven. whispering_wings76 says, bothers me that they do not know the real thing whispering_wings76 says, Makes my heart mushy Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, It is very sad......they are blindly following a lie. godslittlegirl22 says, molestar eh wings? parepidemos_oam_pastor says, Yes Bella, a Catholic believes salvation comes through being a member of the Catholic church and being baptized as a child and of course, by good works. whispering_wings76 says, what?? godslittlegirl22 says, spanish for it bothers you whispering_wings76 says, but how come they do not understand what it is... whispering_wings76 says, I mean... Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, molestar means to bother....doesn't look like it, but it is. whispering_wings76 says, Dot you wish you could tell the whole world.... whispering_wings76 says, I do not know enough to do that but... Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, yes, this is why OAM exists. whispering_wings76 says, sometimes I wish xDeVitriFicAtioNx enters WvstarwolfOAMCounselor says, hi de xDeVitriFicAtioNx leaves parepidemos_oam_pastor says, Yes Bella, but the stumbling block is salvation by grace and not of works, works appeals to the corrupt nature of man and is repugnant to the idea of grace. whispering_wings76 says, define repugnant? Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, We do our best to talk to people and help them line up their beliefs with what the Bible says. parepidemos_oam_pastor says, repulsed Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, nasty, distasteful, Bella whispering_wings76 says, hey this dictoniary is good Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, yep, it's a neat feature. whispering_wings76 says, Are Catholics open to someone talking to them about another way to beleive? Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, When you know what the gospel of grace is and then you look around at people around you who are working their way to heaven....and never going to get there, it should really tear at your heart. whispering_wings76 says, I am not an emotional person but something inside of me melts Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, It's difficult, Bella.....they have grown up with what their church believes so it's hard to get them to change. whispering_wings76 says, I mean, everyone has wings, they jsut have to untie them parepidemos_oam_pastor says, some are Bella, but see, most Catholics have been indoctrinated since birth and are taught to leave the Catholic church is waling away from salvation, another mark of a cult by the way. parepidemos_oam_pastor says, waling=walking Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, yes, in fact, when they marry someone outside the Catholic Church, they are to sign papers swearing they will raise the children in the Catholic Church. whispering_wings76 says, Myabe someday I can do something abut it.... whispering_wings76 says, Time will tell WvstarwolfOAMCounselor says, bella God will let you know when the time is right! Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Bella, this is what makes it very difficult to talk to people in France about God. They are all Catholics so they figure if they go to mass from time to time, they are okay. whispering_wings76 says, Its not now..I do not know enough but it does bother me whispering_wings76 says, eah the Christmas and Easter people..we talked aboutthem in my old church too Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, But according to the Catholic Church, this is true....as long as you've been baptized into the Church, you are going to at least make it to purgatory. whispering_wings76 says, what kind of goal is that? whispering_wings76 says, Oh at least I can go to purgatory... Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, And then, once in purgatory, your family and friends can give money to the church and it will shorten your time in purgatory. whispering_wings76 says, now, thats exciting WvstarwolfOAMCounselor says, NOT whispering_wings76 says, so your family can buy your way to heaven? Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, In fact, Bella, this is how Protestantism started. parepidemos_oam_pastor says, Right, and that is what they mean by assurance of salvation, but since there is no such thing as purgotory, how can that be assurance of salvation? whispering_wings76 says, Protestantism?? whispering_wings76 says, Christianity? whispering_wings76 says, I do not know the anems of all the denominations parepidemos_oam_pastor says, Only as assured as long as your family has enough money to buy you out of purgatory. Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, In the 1500's, Martin Luther, a monk, got upset because the Catholic Church was charging people to shorten their time in purgatory. parepidemos_oam_pastor says, so, don't make your friends and family mad. whispering_wings76 says, He put things on a door... whispering_wings76 says, Too late fr that Pare..LOL whispering_wings76 says, I am staying in purgatory! Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, There was a little saying they had...When your coin in the coffer rings, a soul from purgatory springs. whispering_wings76 says, Mom2Candice leaves Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, That was the catalyst for Luther's theses. whispering_wings76 says, man its some confusing to be catholic whispering_wings76 says, I am not even and I am confused with them parepidemos_oam_pastor says, Humm, I need to add that one to fleecing the flock for fun and profit article Deb. Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, He figured if the Pope had the ability to reduce or even do away with people's time in purgatory if their family paid enough, then why couldn't he just let everyone out of purgatory? parepidemos_oam_pastor says, When your coin in the coffer rings, a soul from purgatory springs. whispering_wings76 says, so he made something up too whispering_wings76 says, ? Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, oh, yes! I forgot! Doug got his article on how to fleece the flock for fun and profit done...it is soooooo funny! Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, I hope to get it up on the website this weekend. Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, Anyway, to wrap things up..... WvstarwolfOAMCounselor says, kewl deb cant wait to read it Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, As you meet people, whether online or off, remember how sad it is that they are working their way to heaven and they are never going to make it on the road they are on. la la la gpan's favorite song Chalkbrd_oam_counselor says, * the end *

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