The Offense of the Cross (Galatians)

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, Heavenly Father, we thank you and praise you for providing this place for us to come together to learn more about you.

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, We ask that you would put your hand on Rachel right now.  Please allow everything to go well for her.  Grant the doctors skill.

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, Lord, we also ask for you to take care of Donna as she drives to be with her.

ParepidemosOAMpastor says, Yes Lord.

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, Father, tonight, help us to focus in on you and your word.

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, Show us what you want to know about you.

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, Open our eyes and hearts to you, Father.

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, We ask this in the precious name of Jesus and for His glory, amen.

learning2bcontent789 says, Amen

ParepidemosOAMpastor says, Amen

whispering_wings76 says, amen

 wvstarwolf_oam_counselor says, amen

 carmanfan33 says, amen

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, The title of tonight is "The Offense of the Cross."

coffeejunkie034 says, amen

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, As I said on the board, we're going to be talking about Pharisaism (Legalism) and 7th Day Adventists and Oneness Pentecostals.

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, The reason we're putting these two groups together is that they are very similar in some important respects.

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, To start out with, I'm going to take you back a bit into your childhood.

 carmanfan33 says, ok

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, When you were little, do you remember anything your parents made you do that you didn't want to do?

ParepidemosOAMpastor says, Eat tomatoes

whispering_wings76 says, vegetables

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, lol

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, Unless it's tomato soup, right, Doug?

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, Did anyone's parents ever keep you from playing somewhere because they were afraid you'd get hurt?

ParepidemosOAMpastor says, Right Deb

 carmanfan33 says, no

whispering_wings76 says, yes

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, Did your parents ever make you brush your teeth and take a bath?

 carmanfan33 says, yes

 wvstarwolf_oam_counselor says, yes

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, Did your parents ever make you clean up your room?

whispering_wings76 says, no

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, (mine tried, but it never did any good.) 

whispering_wings76 says,

ParepidemosOAMpastor says, lol Deb

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, When you were little, your parents had to "force" you to brush your teeth, take a bath, eat the right things.....kids really don't know what is best for them to do.

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, When you grew up, though, you brushed your teeth, took baths and ate good things because you'd learned that it was the right thing to do....right?

carmanfan33 leaves

whispering_wings76 says, yes

ParepidemosOAMpastor says, right

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, This is what we are going to talk about tonight....the difference between living under the law and living under grace.

coffeejunkie034 says, right

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, It may look very similar when you look at people's behavior, but the key is to look at the heart.

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, Turn to one of Doug's favorite books....Galatians.

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, If you go to the first chapter, you can see that Paul does not waste much time in confronting the Galatians with a serious problem.

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, GAL 1:6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel-- 7 which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! 9 As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, As you can see from Paul's strong language, this was something that was a very serious problem.

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, Paul had noticed something in the Galatians that had turned them away from the grace of Christ.

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, And it was turning them to a "different gospel" which is really no gospel (good news) at all.

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, How serious was Paul about this?  Look at his language!

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, He says that if anyone teaches anything other than the gospel that Paul had originally taught them, that person should be condemned to hell forever.

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, Paul was so strong about it that he even said it twice.

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, Let's go on to find out what it was exactly that was happening.

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says,  GAL 1:10 Am I now trying to win the approval of men, or of God? Or am I trying to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a servant of Christ.

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, GAL 1:11 I want you to know, brothers, that the gospel I preached is not something that man made up. 12 I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ.

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, GAL 1:13 For you have heard of my previous way of life in Judaism, how intensely I persecuted the church of God and tried to destroy it. 14 I was advancing in Judaism beyond many Jews of my own age and was extremely zealous for the traditions of my fathers. 15 But when God, who set me apart from birth and called me by his grace, was pleased 16 to reveal his Son in me so that I might preach him among the Gentiles, I did not consult any man, 17 nor did I go up to Jerusalem to see those who were apostles before I was, but I went immediately into Arabia and later returned to Damascus.

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, (here Paul is giving his qualifications, his background, which shows what authority and knowledge he had to be saying what he was saying to the Galatians)

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, GAL 1:18 Then after three years, I went up to Jerusalem to get acquainted with Peter and stayed with him fifteen days. 19 I saw none of the other apostles--only James, the Lord's brother. 20 I assure you before God that what I am writing you is no lie. 21 Later I went to Syria and Cilicia. 22 I was personally unknown to the churches of Judea that are in Christ. 23 They only heard the report: "The man who formerly persecuted us is now preaching the faith he once tried to destroy." 24 And they praised God because of me.

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, GAL 2:1 Fourteen years later I went up again to Jerusalem, this time with Barnabas. I took Titus along also. 2 I went in response to a revelation and set before them the gospel that I preach among the Gentiles. But I did this privately to those who seemed to be leaders, for fear that I was running or had run my race in vain. 3 Yet not even Titus, who was with me, was compelled to be circumcised, even though he was a Greek. 4 This matter arose because some false brothers had infiltrated our ranks to spy on the freedom we have in Christ Jesus and to make us slaves. 5 We did not give in to them for a moment, so that the truth of the gospel might remain with you.

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, Here we see what the problem was.

 wvstarwolf_oam_counselor says, Deb you need to invite Liyla_k in

That person is not online.

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, says she's not online...is that the correct spelling?

 wvstarwolf_oam_counselor says, liyla_k

That person is not online.

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, Says she's not online.  Have her come into chat.

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, You can invite her.  Just go up to Chat and then down to Invite.

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, The first Christians, the first ones to follow Jesus were Jews.

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, The one thing about Jews is that the men were ALWAYS circumcized.

 wvstarwolf_oam_counselor says, Deb she is in chat

liyla_k enters

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, There she is.

liyla_k says, hi everyone

 wvstarwolf_oam_counselor says, hi liyla

Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, Imagine going to a church where the only way to be a part of it was to cut off your thumbs.

liyla_k says, hi wvstar

ParepidemosOAMpastor says, Hi Liyla.

liyla_k says, hi pare

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, Would you join a church if you had to cut off your thumbs?

sanjowina408 says, KiLLa KaLifAz Fo - 0 -EiGhT iN DaT BaY oF SaNJoSe

 wvstarwolf_oam_counselor says, no

whispering_wings76 says, nope

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, This was the problem that the early church faced....

upc_daisy enters

 wvstarwolf_oam_counselor says, hi upc

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, there you go.  Hi, Daisy.

liyla_k says, hi upc

upc_daisy says, thank you

upc_daisy says, i dont understand what is going on with this computer tonight

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, The problem in the early church was that the Jews belonged to a church that was like that.....in order to belong you had to do something pretty drastic to yourself.

upc_daisy says, hold on just a minute, be right back

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, okay

liyla_k says, like aesthicism?

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, When Paul started preaching, God called him to preach to the Gentiles.

whispering_wings76 leaves

Main Entry:       aes·thet·i·cism <img src="/images/audio.gif" border=0 height=11 width=16>

Pronunciation:   es-'the-t&-"si-z&m, is-

Function:          noun

Date:    1855

1 : a doctrine that the principles of beauty are basic to other and especially moral principles

2 : devotion to or emphasis on beauty or the cultivation of the arts

whispering_wings76 enters

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, wb, Wings

whispering_wings76 says, thanks

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, well, Liyla, not really....

ParepidemosOAMpastor says, wb wings, a short flight?

whispering_wings76 says, yeah just a yahoo trip to disconnect

 wvstarwolf_oam_counselor says, wb wings

whispering_wings76 says, thanks

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, When the gospel was being taken to the Gentiles, then the Jewish believers were having real trouble understanding how they had to do all those things, circumcism, following all the laws, etc, but the Gentile believers seemed to get away without doing anything.

liyla_k says, right

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, To the Jews, they couldn't imagine being really saved if you didn't live under the law.

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, So here was the situation in Galatia.

whispering_wings76 leaves

That person is not online.

whispering_wings76 enters

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, Paul was preaching that you are saved by your faith in the finished work of Christ, but the Judiazers were saying that it couldn't possibly be that simple....

 wvstarwolf_oam_counselor says, wb wings

whispering_wings76 says, I need rope or glue

ParepidemosOAMpastor says, Or wings cliped.

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, You surely had to do more than just believe in order to be saved, though the Judiazers.

whispering_wings76 says, hey.....

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, thought

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, a touch of Pare-itis tonight.

whispering_wings76 says, Were the Judiazers...the Jewish people?

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, They were Jewish people who thought that everyone should have to become Jewish before they could be saved.

whispering_wings76 says, ok

carmanfan33 enters

whispering_wings76 says, I think I understand now

 wvstarwolf_oam_counselor says, wb carman

 carmanfan33 says, TY

ParepidemosOAMpastor says, wb Mary

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, wb, Mary

liyla_k says, hi carman

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, Paul was traveling with a guy who was a Greek (a Gentile, which is everyone who isn't Jewish) and the people around Paul wanted Titus to be circumcized.

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, They didn't think Titus could be a REAL Christian if he wasn't doing the "right" thing.

coffeejunkie034 is away (Auto-Away)

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says,  GAL 2:6 As for those who seemed to be important--whatever they were makes no difference to me; God does not judge by external appearance--those men added nothing to my message. 7 On the contrary, they saw that I had been entrusted with the task of preaching the gospel to the Gentiles, just as Peter had been to the Jews. 8 For God, who was at work in the ministry of Peter as an apostle to the Jews, was also at work in my ministry as an apostle to the Gentiles. 9 James, Peter and John, those reputed to be pillars, gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship when they recognized the grace given to me. They agreed that we should go to the Gentiles, and they to the Jews. 10 All they asked was that we should continue to remember the poor, the very thing I was eager to do.

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, GAL 2:11 When Peter came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he was clearly in the wrong. 12 Before certain men came from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles. But when they arrived, he began to draw back and separate himself from the Gentiles because he was afraid of those who belonged to the circumcision group. 13 The other Jews joined him in his hypocrisy, so that by their hypocrisy even Barnabas was led astray.

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, Here was a problem situation.

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, Peter had a vision that said he was supposed to accept the Gentiles as real converts.....

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, But....

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, When some Judiazers came from James in Jerusalem....

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, Peter all of a sudden changed what he'd been doing.

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, He had been associating with the Gentiles with no problem...

upc_daisy says, Peter was denying the gentiles because of the Judiazers?

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, but when the people came from James, Peter decided he'd snub them and ignore them, pretending he believed they had to be circumcized to be real Christians.

whispering_wings76 says, a pillar is a post right?

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, Yes, Daisy

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, yes, but in this case a pillar means a main supporting person.

whispering_wings76 says, ok

whispering_wings76 says, sorry

coffeejunkie034 is back

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, GAL 2:14 When I saw that they were not acting in line with the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter in front of them all, "You are a Jew, yet you live like a Gentile and not like a Jew. How is it, then, that you force Gentiles to follow Jewish customs?

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, GAL 2:15 "We who are Jews by birth and not `Gentile sinners' 16 know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified.

upc_daisy says, who is Peter though?

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, This is the Apostle Peter, the one who denied Jesus 3 times.

upc_daisy says, the same one, oh!

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, (By the way, if you talk to someone who is Catholic, this is a great passage to show that it would be difficult for the early church to see Peter as THE pope when Paul told Peter he was wrong to his face.)

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, Paul flat out told Peter that he was being legalistic.

upc_daisy says, If Peter was an apostle, why was he pretending this?

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, Peter wanted to require people to follow the law, even though he knew that it wasn't the law that saved people, but only their faith in what Christ has done for us.

upc_daisy says, the people had been taught better anyways, right?

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, A lot of people are taught better.....but when it comes to being embarrassed in front of people we want to impress, it's amazing what we'll do.

upc_daisy says, how come he did this?  I thought that when he denied Christ at the Crucifixion, it was the first time.

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, And this is what Paul wanted Peter to see.

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, Peter denied Christ 3 different times that night, Daisy.

upc_daisy says, but, that was too stupid.  maybe i dont get it

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, Stick with me, Daisy, and see if it doesn't start to make sense.

upc_daisy says, if Peter knew that this circumcision wasn't true, then why did he do that?

upc_daisy says, okay, i'll try, but where is this founjd in the Bible, so that I can see.

liyla_k says, interesting

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, Peter wanted to be accepted by these men who came from James.

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, We're in Galatians, Daisy.

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, Paul wanted everyone to know that we are not saved by anything WE do....

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, but only through our faith in what CHRIST has already done.

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, GAL 2:17 "If, while we seek to be justified in Christ, it becomes evident that we ourselves are sinners, does that mean that Christ promotes sin? Absolutely not! 18 If I rebuild what I destroyed, I prove that I am a lawbreaker. 19 For through the law I died to the law so that I might live for God. 20 I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. 21 I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!"

upc_daisy says, ugh. im so confused, but okay.

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, Hang in there, Daisy, as we continue, I think you'll see how it fits.

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, GAL 3:1 You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. 2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard? 3 Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort? 4 Have you suffered so much for nothing--if it really was for nothing? 5 Does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you because you observe the law, or because you believe what you heard?

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, Think about this.....

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, Imagine someone who is living as a prisoner in a prisoner camp.

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, Imagine that person getting free and making it to freedom.

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, Now, imagine that person turning around and going back into that prison.

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, Why would anyone want to do that?

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, No sane person would want to.

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, And this is what Paul is saying the Galatians were wanting to do.

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, They had gotten past the pressure of living under the law...

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, And now they wanted to go back to it.

upc_daisy says, because it makes more sense, maybe?

upc_daisy says, to live and work to be redeemed

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, To live under the law?  Not really.  Because no matter how hard you ever work, you will never make it.

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, The law was given to us to show us just how badly we needed a savior.

upc_daisy says, yes, but easier than faith

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, We can never be good enough to make it.

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, Yes, easier because it's something WE can do.

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, But, the problem is, many of the people we work with are caught in this type of legalism.

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, They feel like their worth to God or their salvation is based on what they DO.

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, But, they also know that there is nothing they can do that will ever be good enough for God.

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, And this causes a lot of people to go into a deep depression.

whispering_wings76 says, its nasty

upc_daisy says, yes

ParepidemosOAMpastor says, brb

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, Instead of salvation being something that is light, it becomes a heavy, oppressive thing....a weight we can never get out from under.

upc_daisy says, because God doesn't tell us anything about faith that we can measure up to.  How are we supposed to know if we believe enough?

upc_daisy says, atleast with works, we know that we are trying

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, Let's skip down a bit to find out how this connects to what I said at the beginning about being a child.

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, Daisy, let me get done and I'll be able to answer your questions a little better.  I think you might see some answers in what I'm going to say.

upc_daisy says, i know that contradicts the Bible, but how come it is that God doesn't talk to us and tell us why He won't give us a blessing.  It is like we are never to know how good or bad we are.

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, GAL 4:1 What I am saying is that as long as the heir is a child, he is no different from a slave, although he owns the whole estate. 2 He is subject to guardians and trustees until the time set by his father. 3 So also, when we were children, we were in slavery under the basic principles of the world. 4 But when the time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under law, 5 to redeem those under law, that we might receive the full rights of sons. 6 Because you are sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out, "Abba, Father." 7 So you are no longer a slave, but a son; and since you are a son, God has made you also an heir.

upc_daisy says, okay, im sorry

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, When we were children, remember the illustration? 

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, We were "forced" to take baths and brush our teeth.

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, But now, as adults, we do these things, not because we are forced, but out of our own desire to do them.

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, Our hearts obey, not out of fear of losing our salvation, but out of a desire to show our love and gratitude to God.

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, The problem with legalism is that it causes us to continue to live under the law.

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, And we have a choice to make.

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, We either live under the law or we live under grace.

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, The two cannot coexist.  They are opposites.

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, Grace means that we get something that we in no way earn.

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, The law says we have to work for everything we get....and we can never work enough to make it.

whispering_wings76 says, thank God for grace

upc_daisy says, I am confused, but need to go for a few minutes.  I will scroll up.

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, Look at what some of the things are that Paul says are legalistic.

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, GAL 4:8 Formerly, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those who by nature are not gods. 9 But now that you know God--or rather are known by God--how is it that you are turning back to those weak and miserable principles? Do you wish to be enslaved by them all over again? 10 You are observing special days and months and seasons and years! 11 I fear for you, that somehow I have wasted my efforts on you.

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, With Seventh Day Adventism, they say that we are bound to observe the Sabbath on the REAL day, which is Saturday.

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, They base their salvation on keeping laws such as these.

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, But the word "Sabbath" means "rest"

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, And since the cross, we now ALL can rest from our own works....

coffeejunkie034 says, sorry, but i have to go.  God bless you all.  Good night.

ParepidemosOAMpastor says, back

coffeejunkie034 leaves

ParepidemosOAMpastor says, God bless Coffee, hugs

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, We now rest every day, every second, because now we no longer work...it is only the work of Jesus that we need.

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, Our own works are useless.

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, They do not get us any closer or farther from God.

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, Jesus already made the way.

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, (This can be found in Hebrews 4)

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, Every day now is a Sabbath for those who are resting from their own works and resting on the work of Jesus.

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, With Oneness Pentecostalism, their salvation is never sure.

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, How can you ever know if you've done enough work to make it to heaven?

 wvstarwolf_oam_counselor says, you wouldnt know

whispering_wings76 says, you can;t know..

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, How can you ever do everything you have to do and never make any mistakes?

whispering_wings76 says, thats why its so stressful and causes depression

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, The churches they go to are much like the type of church we talked about earlier....

ParepidemosOAMpastor says, exactly Wings

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, You don't have to cut off your thumbs, but you do have to wear your hair a certain length....

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, Or you have to wear certain cloths.

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, clothes

learning2bcontent789 says, no jewelry

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, or you have to be in church every time the doors are open...

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, yep, Hailey

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, no makeup

learning2bcontent789 says, nope

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, KJV only

learning2bcontent789 says, yep

whispering_wings76 says, I have a friend who is that

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, All of these things are fine if that is something you personally want to do out of gratitude to God......

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, But when you are forced to do it...

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, whether it's because your salvation depends on it...

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, or your church membership depends on it...

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, or acceptance by other members depends on it...

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, It's to no effect.

liyla_k leaves

liyla_k enters

liyla_k says, hi

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, It's going right back to the law.....

liyla_k says, again

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, wb, Liyla

liyla_k says, thanks

upc_daisy says, I'm back.  I read the chat

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, Think about what it would be like to have a God who only loves you when you do the right things.

 wvstarwolf_oam_counselor says, wb liyla

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, wb, Daisy

upc_daisy says, thank you

liyla_k says,

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, God's love is not dependent on what we do.

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, Our salvation is not dependent on what we do.

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, Grace means that God has given His love and His salvation to us DESPITE who we are or what we do.

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, And this is one of the key factors when dealing with people...most of the Christians we come across are struggling with depression because of this heavy weight of legalism.

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, How can you tell if you are legalistic?

upc_daisy says, question?

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, Just a minute...I'm wrapping things up.

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, When legalism enters the scene, it causes us to have a superior attitude.

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, It causes us to lose our joy.

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, And it causes us to think of ourselves as better than other people.  We hold them up to our own impossibly high standards.

whispering_wings76 says, isn;t that the truth

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, And we lose our gratitude to God.

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, As soon as we see these attitudes in ourselves, we need to fall on our knees and confess them as sin.

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, They have no place in a humble heart.

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, And a proud heart can never understand grace.

upc_daisy says, if you are "saved" and you sinright

upc_daisy says, arggg

upc_daisy says, sorry

upc_daisy says, i had a question and i erased it to wait and now my puter is jamming

whispering_wings76 says, good point deb...about the proud heart

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, If we say we don't sin, Daisy, we are lying.  That is what 1 John says.  We ALL sin, wether we are saved or not.

upc_daisy says, but if you are a christian and you sin, but you die before you confess that sin, does that mean that God will not forgive that sin?

 wvstarwolf_oam_counselor says, daisy that sin is already forgiven

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, Daisy, if that is true, then Jesus didn't pay for all sins on the cross...He has to get back up there and die over and over every time someone else sins.

upc_daisy says, God doesnt remember our sins?

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, No, Daisy, He forgets them as far as the east is from the west.

ParepidemosOAMpastor says, If that were true Daisy, then salvation would depend on the luck of the draw.

upc_daisy says, because i went to a church that said that on the last day of Judgement, God was going to review all of our unconfessed sins.

whispering_wings76 says, My parents church belive something like that too Daisy

upc_daisy says, but, then I was listening to a pastor on the radio who said that once we are Christians, God cannot even see our sins or recognize them because we are covered by Jesus' blood.

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, Daisy, if our salvation depends on our confession of sin, then we must live our life in fear.

ParepidemosOAMpastor says, Not true at all Daisy, the judgment seat of Christ is for rewards, or lack thereof, not for condemnation.

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, We would never know what was going on and we'd never be able to be assured that we were safe.

upc_daisy says, that church is weird because the pastor made it sound like God was going to sit there and go over every sin, one by one by one, infront of everyone.

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, Daisy, many churches do that in order to hold the power of shame over people....to force them to adhere to their own desires.

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, It's a way of controlling people.

ParepidemosOAMpastor says, Then that is saying Christ did not die for the sin of the world.

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, Daisy, let me give you an example.

upc_daisy says, i think so to, chalkbrd

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, If I went to a fancy restaurant and I paid for your whole meal, a blank check for however much you wanted to eat, what part of the meal wouldn't be covered?

carmanfan33 leaves

upc_daisy says, nothing

upc_daisy says, good point

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, This is what Christ has done for us.

upc_daisy says, okay, I see

upc_daisy says, the pastor on the radio was saying that when we confess our sins, it is only to come into agreement with God

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, That is what the word "confess" means.  To agree with God that you did something wrong.

ParepidemosOAMpastor says, I can agree with that statement.

upc_daisy says, am i interrupting too much?

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, As you go down to the end of Galatians, you can see a bit more of what Paul was saying:

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, GAL 6:12 Those who want to make a good impression outwardly are trying to compel you to be circumcised. The only reason they do this is to avoid being persecuted for the cross of Christ. 13 Not even those who are circumcised obey the law, yet they want you to be circumcised that they may boast about your flesh. 14 May I never boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world. 15 Neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything; what counts is a new creation.

liyla_k says, good

upc_daisy says, i just hear so many things on the radio and I dont know sometimes the difference

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, They are good questions, Daisy.

 Chalkbrd_OAM_Counselor says, Paul says here that it is not a matter of what you DO, but of who Christ is and what HE has done for us.

upc_daisy says, there is some preacher on the radio that I cant remember his name, but it sounds like "Spruell" or something like that

upc_daisy says, he was doing a series on shame